There’s an interesting discussion going on here on Sarah Carey’s which follows this on Richard Waghorne’s blog.
Now Sarah’s notes on the idea of whether there were ever such a group as the ‘Celts’, at least as we think of them today is fascinating though im not going to comment on it too much beyond that as my actual knowledge on the topic is fairly limited.
However what does interest me is the idea of whether Irish as a language is dead and whether we have any reason to keep it around. The discussion on Sarah’s site is quite interesting and as a result im going to throw my own hat into the ring on this.
Do something similar to the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland to it.
Now what I mean by that goes back to the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland back in 1869. At that time the Church of Ireland was basically dying on its feet with many of the congregations not being involved in their church beyond Sunday Service. Much like Ireland today with regards to Irish, while ‘everybody’ wanted it, few would put any effort personally into it. With the disestablishment, many of those people who were involved in the Church realised that without their own personal involvement in the Church it would die -as a result they banded together, enabling the Church to survive even into today.
With disestablishement I feel that Irish – which is an effectively dead language, would face the choice of changing or dying. As it is the current system of Irish teaching is pathetic – my father commented on two drunks in the car the other day in Irish and I didn’t understand what he was saying – after 14 years education in a language that’s pretty horrific.
But what exactly do I mean by disestablishment?
Firstly, do away with Irish as a compulsory subject in secondary schools. All most secondary school students learn is to hate the language anyway so…
Secondly, change the way its thought in primary education – move it more towards the way French and German is thought in secondary education. My first year teacher once made the statement that we should be fluent in Irish by sixth class. While I didnt agree with her completly I can acknowledge that having a fair proficiency in a language is not difficult to achieve – especially when you are younger.
I feel that if you did these things and then offered Irish as an optional subject while also changing the subject to be more wide-reaching, incorporating some Irish cultural history and and other distinctively ‘Irish’ elements such as music and arts (placing Peig as an example of Irish literary history for example) (just to clarify – I am talking about things that would be in Irish here, not things done by Irish people in English).
With Irish as an optional subject there would also be the onus on the many parents who say they want their children to learn the language to help out. My mother maintains that had she realised how much trouble I would have with Irish she would have thought me some of it at home by simply talking to me in it as her mother did with her. By forcing people to acknowledge whether they want Irish to continue to exist as a living language or not (much as the church of Ireland was faced with the choice of whether their institution would survive as a living creature or animated corpse) I think that you would either see the acknowledment by everyone that Irish is dead or its renewal as a living language spoken day-to-day.
The current teaching system is a complete failure and should be acknowledged as such.I learned most of my Irish in 3 weeks in Ring. I have better (though poor) capabilities in French, which I learned only for 6 years. Afrer 14 years of learning Irish I cant speak it at all to any proper extent – my language is poor and my grammar nonexistant. Maybe my idea for disestablishment is completly off the wall but something has to be done about the near corpse in our collective backyard.
EWI | 03-Aug-06 at 11:11 pm | Permalink
Do something similar to the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland to it.
Or, even more apt, of the disappearance of the Roman Catholic Church from official Ireland? I entirely agree with your central thesis, though – the language should be made optional. We should take a leaf from the Welsh.
John | 04-Aug-06 at 7:22 am | Permalink
my point with the church of Ireland was that the only reason it was surviving at that point in Ireland was because of the generous payment the British Government was giving it at the time even though all that realy did was make the whole establishment weaker. Thats how I feel the two situations are similar
Tinkerbellsparx | 04-Aug-06 at 9:07 am | Permalink
John’s solution (to me) reads…BRING BACK PEIG!!!! noooooooooo!
Irish needs to be made trendy b4 it’s too late I agree there. How…is a different question…the way it’s taught is messy ~ I got the exact same grade in French for my Leaving and I understood it just as well, it’s strange. The Roman Catholic Church still had a huge grip on Ireland til the sixties though disestablishment or no disestablishment…
EWI | 05-Aug-06 at 1:14 pm | Permalink
But John, the Catholic Church is the other leg of the “Gaelic Ireland” identity shoved down our throats by the State for the past ninety or so years. It’s an anachronism, and it still has far too much influence over secular legislation (as in most notable the ban on gay marriage).
Eugene | 06-Aug-06 at 5:33 pm | Permalink
I agree with EWI the church does have too much Influence over political decisions. Irish is an out of date terminally ill language. It will remain terminally ill till it stops being compulsory. French German Spanish etc are spoken in more than one country worldwide. Irish is spoken in the gaeltacht areas. If the irish language is taken of life support will part of the irish identity die as well. Who Knows? Are people willing to risk a part of our national Identity? I am.
John | 06-Aug-06 at 7:01 pm | Permalink
well, frankly I view irish as an near-corpse.As such it needs to regain its feet or die. And as you say – thats not without risk. There is the question though with the national identity whether Irish as a language can be considered a part of it in honesty. I mean, there a more people speaking Chinese fluently than Irish. So how can Irish have that much of a place?
Eugene | 07-Aug-06 at 1:25 pm | Permalink
It depends on whet national identity you are talking about. The one Americans want to see or the way we want to be seen in the world. By we I mean the younger generation 18-25. The older people are stuck in their ways whether they admit it or not. So it’s up to us, or should I say ye arts/political people I’m a physics guy. So I don’t really care about politics.
Simon McGarr | 07-Aug-06 at 3:31 pm | Permalink
“So it’s up to us, or should I say ye arts/political people I’m a physics guy. So I don’t really care about politics.”
ARRGHH!
Try doing physics in a policitally dysfunctional society and you’ll realise that politics isn’t a subject you take in college. Its a reflection of the totality of decisions made by the citizens of the state- of which, like me, you are one.
John | 07-Aug-06 at 6:34 pm | Permalink
Thanks Simon – couldn’t have said it better myself!!
Though as I lived with three science students this year and I will be again next year I have to say that this attitudes pretty common…
John | 08-Aug-06 at 8:56 pm | Permalink
ahalhl;a
Eugene | 08-Aug-06 at 9:00 pm | Permalink
Yeah
Eugene | 08-Aug-06 at 10:40 pm | Permalink
Both of ye are wrong. As a physics guy society and politics don’t affect me. You can tell me till the cows come home and they are frickin decomposing in the barn. Science dosen’t need society,l Society needs Science. You can say i’m wrong but societies come and go. But at the heart of every society that has been and ever will be there has been someone asking How?, Why?. That’s why science dosen’t need society, It is the product of human curosity and that can never be stopped
Eugene | 08-Aug-06 at 10:41 pm | Permalink
“Its a reflection of the totality of decisions made by the citizens of the state- of which, like me, you are one.”
Sounds like something memorised out of a book